Fighting wrinkles with lasers scientifically unraveled
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Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:18 am

This is interesting: http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=88148&CultureCode=en

Quote:

Although this study suggests that it is heat rather than light that rejuvenates the skin, the laser still remains the instrument of choice in the opinion of Dams. "A laser allows treatment with great precision, because it can specifically heat specific elements in the skin while leaving the rest unharmed. This allows the optimal effect to be achieved."

free skin care · Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:48 pm

When I had my consultation the other day with the doctor about the Sculptra and PRP we had a discussion on lasers. He said that lasers are "back end" treatments. By that he meant that results aren't instantaneous - the benefits are only seen down the track. He also said you need to be consistent with treatments and the more intense the laser, the better the results. Definitely a case of "more pain, more gain".

I think that is why many people complain of lack of results from lasers - they just don't have enough treatments. Of course, that's because not many of us can afford that kind of ongoing expense. I read an article by Ellen Barkin (the actress) and she claims to have four Thermage treatments a year. Apparently Demi Moore also has multiple Thermage treatments regularly (according to someone on TV who probably doesn't really have a clue as to what Demi Moore does). But when my eldest daughter had her laser treatment she said the clinician (who was a mature woman) had absolutely perfect skin. The clinician said it was all due to regular laser treatments - no Botox or fillers, just laser.

As for the STOP - I just can't possibly believe that a little home device can yield the same results as a salon treatment. But whilst I see no adverse effects, I will keep using mine and hope for the best!

free skin care · Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:22 am

whirleegig wrote:

I honestly can't think of anything that resolves volume loss better than fat grafting. I've had a graft and I've been very pleased. It vastly improved the fat loss I got from laser.

There are other options, Sculptra is one. I've heard that fat transplants are out of favour because only a certain percentage of the fat takes and the results aren't predictable. You can find out allot of information on facial fat loss and methods of dealing with it on websites for Aids patients.

free skin care · Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:45 pm

Anne19 wrote:

Keliu wrote:

He also said you need to be consistent with treatments and the more intense the laser, the better the results. Definitely a case of "more pain, more gain".

Dangerous advise.

The following quote is from a physician who perfoms laser treatments:

"I don't like to give my patients sedation or analgesia, because it interferes with their protective mechanism. If it's hurting at a 9 level, it's doing serious damage. I try to titrate to a pain level of 3-4. I have had a few problems with patients who have VERY high tolerance for pain, and will ask me to keep going... I have wizened to this over the years."

To my knowledge, no sedation or analgesia (except topical) is ever given here for laser treatments.

My doctor was just making the point that the more superficial treatments will not yield the results that an intensive treatment will.

free skin care · Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:37 am

I'm not sure what the connection to Big Pharma has to do with anything. Lasers are used all over the world, not just in the US.

I had a look at a couple of the studies you posted, but I'm not convinced of their relevance. One study mentioned heating skin samples in a laboratory for 10 minutes at a temperature of over 60 degrees. I can't see how this relates to a salon laser or IPL treatment. It was carried out to assess at which point cells start to degrade.

However, we can argue about this forever and I don't think we're going to arrive at a consensus of opinion. I'm extremely sorry you had a bad laser experience - but if it were me, I would be blaming the clinician, not the laser. If you were campaigning for a better regulatory system for operators, then I would totally agree with you. But to claim that they are dangerous and should be banned is, IMO, a knee-jerk response.

As many have pointed out, nothing in life is 100% completely safe. Everything comes at a risk - fat transplants included. But just out of interest, I would ask you to Google the dangers of getting a tattoo. You will be confronted with web pages full of the most awful things that can happen. Here is just one as an example:

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/health-risks-warning-on-body-art.html

I really appreciate that you are trying to warn people so they don't have the unfortunate experience that you have had - that's fair enough. But I think warnings need to be balanced out with a realistic approach to things. Really, the most useful piece of advice you could ever give to anyone (in terms of safety) would be never get behind the wheel of a car - but I doubt than anyone would follow that advice.

free skin care · Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:11 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Just some of the examples of what you can find if you look for dangers. You can search The dangers of_____ fill in the blank and you will find sites warning you about the dangers of whatever!

How right you are- our stoves are dangerous, going up and down stairs is dangerous, slicing a tomato is dangerous, as well as riding a motorcycle at 100mph and laser skin resurfacing.

It's all about the risk to reward ratio and each of us has a different way of assessing these.

free skin care · Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:06 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Yes, doctors get sued for everything these days - especially in the States (which is the most litigious country in the world). I'm surprised that we don't hear about more lawsuits - especially with the growing popularity of laser hair removal.

It's a disgrace really we have lost many OB/GYN's who now only practice as GYN's due to lawsuits over less than perfect outcomes from childbirth and hospitals that have closed their labor and delivery-maternity departments. Some just because the malpractice insurance is too high for delivery to be profitable. Leaving many areas without many options at all.

The same thing is happening here too. Doctors are leaving the field of obstetrics because the insurance is too high.

free skin care · Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:02 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

To clarify everything as much as possible,

Keliu lives in Australia, we only know one another from this forum. While she has had cosmetic procedures including laser treatments, with great results (pictures posted that back it up) I on the other hand have had no cosmetic procedures at all. We are only 3 years apart in age. Smile

I just want to add I have enormous respect for Keliu and adore her wit immensely. Not that she needs it but I support her choices regarding any cosmetic procedures she chooses to have done.

Just because I haven't had any done myself at this point doesn't mean when circumstances change I won't.

I don't want to exchange links or argue this into the ground any more. Let's just respect each others rights to make adult choices with all the possible risks and benefits known. Smile

free skin care · Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:39 am

DarkMoon wrote:

That's all I have seen until their stories, there seems to be mission mindset amongst them.

Well, I can understand that though. If my face had melted away from a laser treatment, I'd want the world to know about it too. I'm just surprised that there's not more concrete evidence - I don't believe for one minute that there's been some kind of media cover-up. You would think that if thousands of women were suffering serious injury from laser treatments that the media would be all over it.

I'd be very interested to hear what Anne and Whirleegig's doctors had to say about their injuries. Did they hold themselves accountable?

free skin care · Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:46 am

I understand what you are saying Annie and sympathize for all who have had negative reactions from laser procedures.

I guess what I am getting at is those who have had good or mediocre results and those who have not had any laser procedures at all can't do anything that you all can to resolve this legally, we don't have the ammunition to go to our legislators with. Smile

free skin care · Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:55 pm

Thanks for this clarifying response.
Darkmoon and Keliu--I totally agree with the perception/reality issue--I remember when I turned 30 and thought I looked super old, and now I look the same and think I look young, because I got used to the subtle changes in my facial structure and skin.
The Vbeam left me with a fairly swollen undereye, and I was nervous to go out and thought I had to explain my appearance to others. No one noticed, especially since even if people do notice, they just aren't generally focusing on your tiny imperfections or inconsistencies from one side of your face to the other.
How long does the lipotrophy take to manifest? I'm on the lookout now. It seems more likely to happen with multiple procedures back to back, when the dermis cannot recover from the trauma. I plan to avoid that. What else can I do, does anyone know? I've been practicing a benign 'maintenance-mode' approach to my skin overall, and it has made a huge difference in my life, and in my skin, too!

I will keep you guys posted in case my face melts, but I trust it won't.

For the record, I do not think that Doctors are gods, far from it. I myself hold a PhD and let me tell you I'm no all-knowing goddess (although I aspire to be both all-knowing and goddesslike). Nevertheless, I do believe that Doctors wouldn't enthusiastically offer procedures that would affect a large number of patients so adversely. They would lose all their patients and incur lots of lawsuits if they behaved that recklessly. That is to say, I do believe that many of them perhaps do not understand the technology enough to predict how every patient would respond, but I do think they have faith in the procedures they offer. My Dr. was really excited that my vessels seemed to respond so well to the treatment. She seemed pleased, and that made me feel good.

--avalange

whirleegig wrote:

Hi, Avalange.

I don't want you to be overly worried because not everyone experiences damage. Look at the MAUDE adverse reactions found on the FDA website and decide for yourself. It can happen with various lasers and IPL to good doctors. Anne was damaged by VBeam. I was damaged by Palomar 1540 fractional. Lots of other people attribute their damage to lots of other devices. You dont have to take my advice. I get the info out there and you can take it or leave it.

Keliu, NO, there is no FDA cover up! The problems with the FDA are very much out in the open and well-known to educated Americans. There are hormones and antibiotics in our food. The meat industry is fraught with potential harm to consumers due to the unsanitary conditions that animals are raised in. Monsanto strong-arms farmers into buying new seed every year. Consumers don't know which foods on the shelves are GMO or not. Known carninogens are found throughout our food chain. Don't tell me cancer isn't a problem here because I've lost numerous friends to cancer and my father is dying of cancer right now. Harmful drugs and devices make it to market on a regular basis, the FDA is bursting at the seams with reports of adverse reactions and attorneys are raking it in with various lawsuits.

I'm sure Australia is a happy rainbow candyland where government officials would never, ever sell out the public for cold, hard cash. But don't tell me what's going on in my country. I stay informed.

My lipoatrophy is not a perception problem.It was diagnosed by two doctors.

The biggest problem with all of these different devices causing harm is that the MAUDE reports are filed according to the exact device, not type of device, making information confusing,fractured and watered down. Google IPL Thermal bystander effect.That's a study by Dr.Oliver Sorg. Read this story on Thermage: http://newsblaze.com/story/2004091315010200001.ew/topstory.html -that exactly describes the damage people experience with all types of lasers and IPL. Do you realize how much money it will take to do a study like this with each and every different device? Who will pay for it? Certainly not the manufacturers.

free skin care · Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:39 pm

This article may be of interest to some of you:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lsm.20286/pdf

free skin care · Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:17 pm

Thank you SO much Lacy! I don't believe I've seen a study containing so many detailed photos of IPL and laser damage victims before! I found the conclusion very interesting!

Conclusion: This report shows that even experts, with extensive experience using light-based therapies, can and do have patients who develop complications.

free skin care · Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:57 pm

There's now a fractional laser approved for home-use!

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx?view=2%26app=detail%26params=item^A212768

Please cut and paste the entire link to view.

free skin care · Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:41 pm

Yes, my hope would be that anyone concerned or interested would read the entire study. Very informative- in fact Whirleegig added this to our resource section in our IPL/Laser damage forum. Thanks Whirleegig!

free skin care · Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:01 am

heck, I've even got a carton of bad milk sitting in my refrigerator~! Laughing

I am trying to lighten us all up and keep the drama out of the discussion. It's starting to remind me of facial exercise! oy vey!! Bad Grin

free skin care · Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:40 pm

Anne19 wrote:

Thanks Keliu, interesting! I see there are some physicians in my area who do this this peel, I'm going to check into it to see if it's appropriate for sensitive skin.

I hope you find what works out for you Anne! I sincerely wish you all the best and great results!!! Smile

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