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Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:33 am  |
| Bermie2 wrote: |
Congrats DrJ, the site looks great and I would like to purchase but I am in Australia too, so I guess my hands are tied!
Good luck to those who can try it and let us all know how it goes. |
Australia is our 2nd home. We will find a way! |
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Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:16 pm |
Kassy,
We use several different approaches to improve skin penetration. One is to add DMI and similar well known and safe solvents to the formulation that reduce the skin's resistance to hydrophilic (water soluble) molecules. Another is to encapsulate key ingredients either in liposomes(e.g.soy isoflavones) or solid lipid nanoparticles - SLN's &/or nanosomes (e.g. stem cytokines). These strategies also help keep the actives stable in the final formulation, preventing degradation and extending their shelf life |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:35 am |
| Several people asked me about what essential oils are in the accelerator. Turns out the answer is none. The label contains a mistake, traced back to the factory. We will be correcting that shortly. Meanwhile, sorry for the confusion. |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:44 pm |
I think I am all caught up on questions, except this one from Kassy .. What definitive skin improvements could the average 40, 50 & 60 year old expect to see after say, 1 year of committed use? I ask this so I can make a comparison to whether or not it can do more for me than the Vitamin C serum & Retin-A have continually done for me. (I spend about $50. per year on these products.)
Good question. I think you should have a look at the AnteAGE clinical trial results.
http://anteage.com/anteage-clinical-trial/
Additional info: The age distribution of the population in the study was primarily 40's, 50's, and 60's. The benefits were really the same across the age spectrum, in terms of the 12 parameters measured. In terms of the degree of improvement,
0 worse with AnteAGE
1 no improvement
2 minor improvement
3 moderate improvement
4 considerable improvement
5 remarkable improvement
if we look across an age spectrum and take an average across parameters, we see average scores of 4.4 in the 40's, 4.0 in the 50's, and 3.5 in the 60's. I think this means there is more work for any product to do the older the person is at the start.
It's always hard to compare one product to another unless you do a test with a large number of people. And of course each person is a bit different. I would point out that we provide not just a retinoid and Vit C, but a host of other proven actives, plus the superhero ingredient stem cytokines.
Hope this helps. |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:27 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Well that makes it 'clinically proven' doesn't it? |
Funny. An artist made a banner ad for us that had "clinically proven" on it. I said "no, I have been advised that is the wrong thing to say". See, you folks do make a difference. |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:00 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
I think I am all caught up on questions, except this one from Kassy .. What definitive skin improvements could the average 40, 50 & 60 year old expect to see after say, 1 year of committed use? I ask this so I can make a comparison to whether or not it can do more for me than the Vitamin C serum & Retin-A have continually done for me. (I spend about $50. per year on these products.)
Good question. I think you should have a look at the AnteAGE clinical trial results.
http://anteage.com/anteage-clinical-trial/
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Thanks so much Dr J for answering my questions... Will you indulge me just once more.. 
Consistent use of Vitamin C Serum, Retin-A and AHA's have my 62 year old skin in really great, glowing and plump condition. Albeit a little lower face sag, I really have no complaints. In fact, my skin turnover seems better now than it was 20 years ago when I didn't use any products whatsoever....
Soooo, could you please tell me what additional improvements I could expect to achieve by adding your serums to my regime? I'm particularly interested in it's ability (or lack there of) in skin firming.
I thank you for the link to the reviews, but after 5 years at EDS, I've learned NOT to put much weight in them. (I've jumped on too many disappointing bandwagons based on reviews + clinical trials  ) I will definitely look forward to the input here at EDS 3 months from now though!
Thanks again DrJ. |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:45 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
I just had a thought while reading about pie charts, improvements and such.
If 100 people with dry skin applied Vaseline, 100 people would be claiming improvement the next day...
So what?  |
LOL. I have learned to take the personal assessment claims with a huge grain of salt. Rose colored glasses (and positive attitudes) play a major role when assessing ourselves! |
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Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:23 pm |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:19 am |
| jom wrote: |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:33 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
I can't believe I just wasted 15 minutes reading that drivel. They clearly think they're better than us - how ignorant (and arrogant) of them. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly. |
EDS seems to be coming in for some snide remarks - which is quite funny seeing as how most post here as well. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:35 am |
Just a couple thoughts after skimming over the site and this thread and probably some tiny bit of critique (Or a more PC way of saying that if something I say offends someone in some way, please do see a therapist before you respond).
No doubt interesting product, might even try it, provided EU shipping becomes available... and I get to see some more real results. Video interviews with user feedbacks do not sway me (quite the opposite, to be honest, after watching them), user comments/impressions from 'clinical trails' aren't too convincing either. Those things and more I see on any given cosmetic sites who also claim to have done decades of innovative research and posses unique or advanced understanding of aging. On some other thread I kept reading about more tests and research on this Cellese cytokine cocktail that's copyrighted or otherwise unpublished; is there any chance that might change in the next 6-12 months? Because frankly, what I currently see is next to nothing and there is only DrJ's word that everything is top notch and the product delivers. From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far. It really irks me, honestly, even more so since DrJ has at times criticized others for same tactics and commented on cosmetic industry as such for being only big shiny ads made up by marketing. Not that it concerns me, I'm not Cellese customer and I've never used any of the other products in question, but not it comes over as a tiny double standard. I also don't feel the urge to play guinea piggy for anyone, not my cup of tea. I'd love to know what type of collagen will grow in skin and where exactly, what will happen with elastin, how much plumping can be expected, and other things I can't think of at the moment, like does it stimulate microcirculaton in skin and/or new capillary growth, would it assist in barrier repair after procedures like IPL/laser/peels.
For the website you might want to get a better graphics team and maybe hire some editor to polish things up and give it all a more professional look, like adding crisp quality graphs and pies, for starters. If you throw a lot of cash into the science stuff, product R&D and cells themselves, but halfway decent web design services usually cost a fraction of that.
That said, I'm looking forward to reviews here on EDS and other places! The Accelerator not so much, but the Serum itself is what I'm most interested in.
Unrelated, but is it too much to ask to keep thread cluttering (albeit amusing) comments on other forums in Lounge? There are threads for that. It's different target audience and they like "pix of catz", so leave them their fun. |
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Do what all good pragmatists do. Compromise. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:51 am |
| A very nice thing happened to me with Cellese. I ordered only the serum and was offered a decent coupon for the Accelerator, bringing the cost of the Accelerator down to almost 1/2 price. Will trial the whole thing and see what it does and how long it lasts. I was on ISCO Lifeline for about 9 months, so can compare the two in time and let all of you know how it goes and what I notice. Way to go, Cellese! |
_________________
70+ Lifeline Daycare, their Eye firming complex, OSEA ocean lotion cleanser, Makeover Workshop Re-Creation Lip Treatment, Argan oil some nights, Dennis Gross CC Cream SpF 18 |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:01 am |
| WhiteWolf wrote: |
Dr. J, don't even waste your time on that forum, not worth it. It's like we're being challenged to a "face off".
I bought some DIY actives before but I don't have tons of time on my hands and I also appreciate science and advancement in medicine. I also think $280 is not outrageous considering other brands like Perricone, SKII, etc. |
I thought that was one of the strangest criticisms over on skincaretalk. It's like if we don't DIY there's something wrong with us. Some people just don't have the interest or competency or time to DIY and would prefer to have others make our concoctions for us and we don't mind paying for them. It's my money I'll do what I want with it. |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:03 pm |
| jazzi wrote: |
| From what I gather on the website, there was no mention of my favorite thing, biopsies or anything related to that, not even silicone impressions. Or will those come in time? I know SkinMedica's Nouricel (which to me seems in at least some way comparable to Ante-age cytokines) has some nice and convincing research published and their TNS product duo does work... Results are not extraordinary, but it's there, both in the literature and on real skin and beneath it. Again, Ante-age promises very much, but very little of seems solid to me so far. |
My post raising the same issue as Jazzi's above also seems to have been ignored.
I would like to see the biological/physiological results to the skin from applying AntiAGE. I'm not interested in testimonials or before and after photos - they are merely subjective observations. I want to see solid medical data. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:55 am |
I am a dispute mediator by training and profession, so excuse me for my tendency to always seek a bottom line, a final analysis if you will.
It seems the bottom line here is that with respect to these new product developments, they are not yet fully fleshed out, although preliminary evidence appears promising.
BFG |
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:38 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
Dr J, this paragraph is from an article you wrote on BFT about cytokines:
"Every time you go out into the sun (especially if unprotected) your skin undergoes injury. The DNA in your skin cells is damaged. Chemicals are released. Some of those cells will be repaired. Some will die. But repeated insult and repair leads to photoaging. Spots, wrinkles, sags, etc. Add to that some intrinsic (genetically programmed) aging. With chronic, repeated injury there are changes that take place in the skin (subsurface scarring). This is why cosmetic surgery, lasers, devices, and various skin concoctions are prevalent in the marketplace."
I'm interested in this statement "Some of those cells will be repaired. Some will die."
Would you say that by using MSC a greater number of the cells will be repaired? Does MSC help repair damaged cells thereby slowing down phototaging? Is MSC preventative? How do the cells that get repaired get repaired? Is that what anti-aging is all about, trying to repair as many damaged cells as possible? Pardon my ignorance. |
jom, this question goes to the very heart of uur work, and is a major source of investigation & debate in anti-aging medicine. I won't be able to do it justice here, but will give you a reference or two and maybe do a BFT post in the near future.
This is all about cell senescence, and why we don't live forever. The balance between cell immortality and cancer.
I'm going to just give you a couple of tantalizing sentences, then set you off on a journey to discover (any who are so interested).
Skin cells undergo constant bombardment from the environment. They get damaged, which can lead to mutations at the DNA level. The older a cell, the more likely it is to mutate. To prevent that happening, our cells stop dividing after a certain point (become senescent) which means they cannot become cancerous (which is all about growth). Now senescent cells still function. Common pigmented moles really are groups of senescent cells. They still metabolize. They are alive. Now the problem with senescent cells is that they tend to make inflammatory cytokines. The wrong kind if you want healthy looking skin. And inflammation and aging are linked as well. Our work is all about working out the problem at the cytokine level (for skin - but has implications for all cells). Look at this NYT article, and watch for references to cytokines.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/22/science/in-bodys-shield-against-cancer-a-culprit-in-aging-may-lurk.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3
Here is an oldie but goodie academic article on wound healing & cell senescence (remember - wound healing tells us a lot about aging too).
http://www.nature.com/cdd/journal/v12/n7/pdf/4401632a.pdf
Thanks for asking a question on one of my favorite topics! |
Interesting, so it seems that one way to slow down the aging process is to get rid of the senescent cells. I'll take that drug!
In the meantime, I think I'm still trying to understand a little bit more about how your product works and what the benefits of MSC are.
Does MSC do anything to deal with "the problem with senescent cells is that they tend to make inflammatory cytokines."
I've looked back on some of the older posts on the cytokine thread and put that information in quotes and italics.
"Cytokines are also known as “signaling peptides” They are small proteins that cells send out to talk to one another. It’s like the signal corps, rallying the troops."
So there are good cytokines and bad (inflammatory)cytokines, yes?
I understand that the work you have done is "We have learned how to farm these specialized healing cells and to maximize their production of the good stuff (cytokines & growth factors)."
"The thing about these cells, and the cytokines and growth factors that they produce, is that we are talking about something that is entirely natural. These mesenchymal stem cells are our body’s natural producers of healing biochemicals."
So what is the MSC going to heal?
"But when a cocktail containing a blend of cytokines and growth factors, formulated not by humans but by these very clever cells, you can get the good effects without the bad. In fact, in 3 clinical trials, I have yet to see an adverse effect. It’s because we are mimicking nature. We aim to replicate what your own body would do when you were a newborn."
Senescent cells are swept away less efficiently as a person ages, does the MSC do anything to help sweep away the senescent cells more efficiently? Or, what does our own body do when we are a newborn that you are trying to replicate with the MSC? |
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:07 pm |
I got my AnteAGE products in the mail today. I only ordered the serum but there must have been a mix-up in the shipping department because they sent me both products! I wasn’t interested in the accelerator because it has retinol in it and I use Retin A but since I got it I’ll use it. I’m going to use both products in the morning only.
My very first impression is very good. The packaging and the delivery system are first class. These products will look pretty in the bathroom. I tested the products on the back of my hand and I can tell these are high-quality products. There is a lot of substance to them and they are both quite moisturizing. The serum is light but somewhat creamy. It’s not a clear liquid like Vitamin C serums. The accelerator is a lotion, it’s not too heavy. One of my tests of a product is whether or not I will enjoy using it and applying it and I can tell I will enjoy using and applying these products.
According to the Cellese website …”By replenishing lost cytokines in a topical product on the skin, we are able to effectively reengage your skin’s healing process. Your skin knows how to become more youthful looking – it always has but needs the proper signals. The stem cytokines in AnteAGE are the same ones each of us produces throughout life – a lot when we are young, less and less as we age. Stem Cytokines are 100% natural products.” I’m going to see what the products can do for me.
I’m going to test the products by using the same 12 parameters Dr. J used in his study. This is my baseline:
Tone – I usually think of tone as cool or warm so I’m not sure what to look for here maybe it is muscle tone. I’ll need Dr. J’s help defining that parameter so I know what to look for.
Softness – My skin is pretty soft, not soft as a baby’s behind but it’s already kind of soft.
Redness – I do have some redness, especially on my chin, from Retin A use.
Texture – My skin is smooth.
Dryness – My skin is not overly dry. I do at times have some peeling from the Retin A.
Age spots – I have gotten rid of my problems with brown spots with Vitamin C, AHA’s and Retin A so I don’t have a problem with age spots.
Pore size – I have some visible pores on my nose and on either side of my nose, would love to reduce those.
Color blend – Not sure what to look for here my skin seems pretty even-colored.
Brightness – I use a serum with niacinamide in it and have noticed a lot of added brightness to my skin from using it. I am going to replace that serum with the AnteAGE serum so I’ll see if I get even more brightness.
Blotchiness - I don’t have any blotchiness.
Fine lines – I have fine lines under my eyes which have been helped with Retin A but I’d like more help.
Deep lines – I don’t have any deep lines.
As more background – I like my skin and think it is pretty good condition so I may not be the best person to test these products. I get compliments on my skin sometimes. I also look about ten years younger than I am. I am the kind of person who does get results from products. I know there are people on the forum who do not get results so just be forewarned that I do get results. About ten years ago I had a bad problem with brown spots on my skin. I started using Skinceuticals CE Ferulic and they started going away. I started using AHA’s and they went away more then I started using Retin A and they went away more so I don’t have a problem with age spots any more. I don’t know what AnteAGE can do for me that other products haven’t already done. I would like my undereye area to look more youthful and my pores to be smaller and to get rid of some redness. Those are the things I’ll be focused on seeing if I experience any results from AnteAGE. (Actually I would love it if I could find a product that would help the corners of my mouth turn up! LOL) What else should I be looking for Dr. J? I’m also interested in prevention. Will my skin look better five years from now if I continue to use these products than it would look if I didn’t use the products? In short, do I really NEED these products, no. I’m just really curious and like to try new things every once in a while. I’ll let you know how it goes. |
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:29 pm |
Jom - congratulations on your "bonus". I can picture Dr making some hurried phone calls to the shipping department!
Could I ask what age group you're in? Also be sure and note how long each product lasts. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:19 am |
Forgive me, I must be having a slow moment this morning, but what are you trying to get across here, Dragon? What is the point of your post? |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:31 am |
| erg wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| erg wrote: |
| I hope to be able to afford both, but if not I am going for the activator as my skin is SUPER dry. I am also going to use short dermaroller before application of the activator at least 2x per week to hopefully maximize results. |
I can't see the point of just using the activator - because without the serum, you have nothing to activate! |
But it is my understanding is that the activator has the cells as well - just in smaller quantities. Is that correct? |
Hi erg,
On page 5 the ingredient list shows the stem cell extract (my wording) as the first ingredient in both products? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:50 am |
| erg wrote: |
| Thanks DM - that is what I thought as well. It is my understanding that the serum has a higher concentration. If I am going to eliminate products, I gotta go for moisture. That is my sole reason for going for the activator over the serum. |
If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the stronger serum and just use a basic good moisturiser over the top. But I'm just talking off the top of my head, hopefully DrJ will steer you in the right direction. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:52 am |
| erg wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| erg wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| erg wrote: |
| I hope to be able to afford both, but if not I am going for the activator as my skin is SUPER dry. I am also going to use short dermaroller before application of the activator at least 2x per week to hopefully maximize results. |
I can't see the point of just using the activator - because without the serum, you have nothing to activate! |
But it is my understanding is that the activator has the cells as well - just in smaller quantities. Is that correct? |
Hi erg,
On page 5 the ingredient list shows the stem cell extract (my wording) as the first ingredient in both products? |
Thanks DM - that is what I thought as well. It is my understanding that the serum has a higher concentration. If I am going to eliminate products, I gotta go for moisture. That is my sole reason for going for the activator over the serum. |
That is my understanding as well the Activator is a more creamy texture. I don't know if Dr. J said which has more, but will take your word for that one. Too much reading!
I hope it meets your needs and expectations!
PS OT but loving my LightStim! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:56 am |
Sometimes, it becomes worthwhile to review the regulatory differences between cosmetics and drugs.
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm074201.htm
One of my dermatology texts devotes a whole chapter to guiding manufacturers through and around the definitions and process and various loopholes and deceptive wording. I should probably review that again.
BFG |
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:13 am |
| And if it has been tested for wound healing, that would mean short term/small patch use. But we tend to use creams and lotions daily over a very long period of time if we like the results. |
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