Bad experience with Flex Effect. Anyone else have the same?
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free skin care · Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:24 am

I was doing the 3rd edition of FlexEffect religiously (as I had done for the 2nd edition) until I changed to Carolyn's program.
The reason that I changed is not because FE doesn't build face muscles, but because of the difficulty in avoiding folds when pulling the muscles. You must be very vigilant with FE. Initially, when I started FE (2nd edition), my face was looking good.
But this did not last, and the folds, including NL lines were side-effects that seemed to be common according to the forums.
I could probably have found a solution for me, but after trying for a long time, I switched. Actually, I started substituting some FE exercises with corresponding ones from Carolyn.
Even though I had purchased Carolyn's program months before, I didn't do the program at all because it looked too mild to have any effect. But I was wrong.
It is much easier with Carolyn's program (for me) because there is no need to finagle the exercises. Once in a while, I add some Loli alterations for the FE exercises.

free skin care · Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:15 pm

VirginiaWhite wrote:

I have seen those like Maggio, Fraser, Carolyn Cleves seem to have less bulky faces.

Hello Virginia,

It’s odd that you would use the word bulky when describing my face. Over the YEARS that very description of me has only come from a disgruntled competitor of mine who sells a plagiarized watered-down program consisting of several other facial trainers material. No, I’m sorry, it would be highly unethical of me to name this person or, more to the truth, would probably get this post taken down. So... let the buyer beware.

Since this is such a public forum I felt it necessary to post a few photos of my so-called bulky face. I started training in my early 30’s ... just like you.

Bulky photo #1
Photo age 47 - In training for 15 years

My next bulky shot age 50 - Training for 18 years

Next bulky shot age 56 - Training for 24 years

My next bulky shots age 61 - Training for 28 years. I apologize for such a close up and lack of makeup.

My latest photo age 62 - Training for 30 years.

Will you just look at the bulging bulk under those eyes!

If anyone is interested in a full page of photo’s showing my journey into masculinity here’s a link. http://www.flexeffect.com/debpic.htm

Cheers
Deb

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:03 pm

VirginiaWhite wrote:

Anyone else have a bad experience with Flex Effect?
Anyone use another facial exercise program for a long time which is less aggressive and get great results?
Any advice is appreciated!

I gave the preliminary program (30 exercises!! My entire body doesn't require that many for strength training), a brief (two days brief) trial run and absolutely hated it. I found the majority of the exercises awkward, uncomfortable, overly complicated, difficult to remember, and was very unhappy with being asked to exaggerate expression lines during some of the exercises. I understand the premise that eventually the muscle will build and the lines will disappear - and this is certainly the case for some flex effect enthusiasts - but I hated every second that I was furrowing my brow and wrinkling my nose...it felt contradictory. Plus, I know for a fact that it's unnecessary.

I woke up the next day (even though I was doing 3 reps max) with a bloated, tired looking face and fluid retention beneath my eyes. I'm used to facial exercises giving me an instant perky boost and healthy glow; I can't deal with looking like I've just been in a fight, or consumed a gallon of salt the night before. I knew my skin couldn't handle stretching but I thought "maybe this time will be different; maybe Flex Effect is designed to minimize the side-effects of stretching." Nope. I even gave the alternative holds a go with no luck.

I just wanted you to know you aren't the only one whose face isn't compatible with FE. You're allowed to have a bad experience, and critiquing the program is necessary to keep the feedback balanced and honest. So I'd just like to say "thank you" for sharing your experience, even if not everyone else here is glad you did.

free skin care · Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:25 pm

Nanella wrote:

VirginiaWhite wrote:

Anyone else have a bad experience with Flex Effect?
Anyone use another facial exercise program for a long time which is less aggressive and get great results?
Any advice is appreciated!

I gave the preliminary program (30 exercises!! My entire body doesn't require that many for strength training), a brief (two days brief) trial run and absolutely hated it. I found the majority of the exercises awkward, uncomfortable, overly complicated, difficult to remember, and was very unhappy with being asked to exaggerate expression lines during some of the exercises. I understand the premise that eventually the muscle will build and the lines will disappear - and this is certainly the case for some flex effect enthusiasts - but I hated every second that I was furrowing my brow and wrinkling my nose...it felt contradictory. Plus, I know for a fact that it's unnecessary.

I woke up the next day (even though I was doing 3 reps max) with a bloated, tired looking face and fluid retention beneath my eyes. I'm used to facial exercises giving me an instant perky boost and healthy glow; I can't deal with looking like I've just been in a fight, or consumed a gallon of salt the night before. I knew my skin couldn't handle stretching but I thought "maybe this time will be different; maybe Flex Effect is designed to minimize the side-effects of stretching." Nope. I even gave the alternative holds a go with no luck.

I just wanted you to know you aren't the only one whose face isn't compatible with FE. You're allowed to have a bad experience, and critiquing the program is necessary to keep the feedback balanced and honest. So I'd just like to say "thank you" for sharing your experience, even if not everyone else here is glad you did.

Such passion. Regardless, I have to ask, if you were so pleased with what you were used to. A perky boost and a healthy glow... why on earth would you spend $125.00 to reinvent the wheel that was working quite well for you?

I imagine you took advantage of our refund policy, and returned the product for a complete refund. If not, perhaps you still have time. I find most seasoned Internet shoppers and forum visitors such as yourself are keenly aware of return policies.

Or perhaps you registered in the free workshop forum to ask some questions as to why we do things the way we do. Although your specific story is unfamiliar.

Just for the record there are over 30 exercises one can do for their body. And that's just weight lifting.

When in a pilates studio, I don't even think I could count. My TRX poster offer nearly 30. And those are considered basic moves.

In ballet, well the list goes on and on, and then you have to learn all the styles. Russian, Cecchetti (I'm most familiar with), French. I really hate it when the same move goes by several names. Or different moves by the same name. That seems really unnecessary. But I'll be danged I wish I could turn like Baryshnikov. I don't care what style he does. I've endured his style of class just to improve turns.

My point with regard to the above bodywork is that only a complete program would offer you a way to hit all of your facial muscles from various angles. There is NO SUCH THING as one size fits all. But like all types of workouts, basics are always taught first. With tweaking left to be determined based on results.

And I guarantee the most beautiful ballerina went through hell with all the awkwardness of every single body manipulation. You can bet she wanted it badly. Voluntary muscle control is HARD! Head to toe. Regardless, at FE we would never ask you to endure something as awful as bloody toes, and humiliating corrections infront of a full class. We're much more low key, and would work a person through their difficulties.

For example, Nanella, I'd have had a handful of suggestions with regards to your 2 day, all out test run. But was not asked best as I can tell.

Of course we live in a free world and are entitled to our opinions of how we look.

I'm actually quite pleased this opinion was shared. I'm still waiting to be pointed to the very falty advise supposedly rec'd on our site. I really need to be able to correct the "giver".

So I'm hoping, since I'm sure Virginia is here in her honest quest for some type of answer, she would be willing to help us better our service and product in the future. I look forward to getting further insight.

One can always e-mail me at Claudia@flexeffect.com. Or use the PM above... If they'd like to take their personal situation private. I know many don't want to share the before and afters I'm sure they took based on direction with the whole wide world... For every google search out there to find! Cool

free skin care · Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Firefox --> thanks for the advice, I think the MAP vitamin C is a great idea and I'll definitely give it a go! I noticed skinactives stocks it.
I'll have to contact the lady you suggested about her tips and tricks as making your own stuff is the best once you know what you are doing! You mentioned shea butter, well dream cream from skin actives has that as its main ingredient, so happy to hear it is so beneficial as I use it daily.

I do eat lots of healthy protein which I need as I have been training very seriously for 7 years now: no red meat, only white meat, oily fish twice a week, some dairy but not too much as I find lactose can make me overproduce mucus (ewww) and sometimes it makes me sniffly- is that an allergy? I suspect my body is not crazed about it but I try to eat curd, some cheese for the vitamin K2 and kefir for the probiotics. Plus I love broad beans (which are low in lectins) but I don't eat any other lentils or pulses as I read the high level of lectins can irritate the gut and also mess with one's thyroid. I also started eating okra recently as I read the mucilage clings to lectins and helps them to be eradicated quickly and without problem and that also these properties prevent bowel problems and illnesses.

Deb--> I hope you will take the time to read this long reply in which I hope to address your thoughts in terms that I am sure you as a body builder can comprehend. I mean not to diss anyone's program but to give you a -perhaps valuable- insight into a client's view on your product and I hope it will help you to address issues in the best possible way, which I feel others also have from pming various people on various forums.

I honestly do not want to upset anyone and you have such perfect eyes and forehead no one could ever deny that, the close ups are incredible and you can be very proud that all these years of hard work have paid off because I am sure so many women of 60, 50 even 40 would love to have your wrinkle free big blue eyes and smooth skin. I also don't want to upset Carolyn who I think has gorgeous cheek bones and a cute little nose plus a stunning sheen to her complexion.
We all have great things about our faces and of course some of that is genetic and some of that hard work! I would rather have that due to hard work than surgery and I have always worked very hard exercising my body to perfection, so am sure it is possible for the face but I have had to concentrate on certain areas of my body whilst others have with minimum effort exceeded expectation.
Which leads me to my point that as we all have strengths and weaknesses, we need to know how to capitalize our strengths and address our weaknesses.

As for me, I am just a newbie who was looking for info and it seems I have become entangled in a war between CFF and FE! This was not my intention, nor is it my purpose to hurt anyone's feelings. I know how personally and to heart we all take comments on our looks, which is why we all want to do facial exercises to begin with. Both you and Carolyn have worked very hard at perfecting and promoting a program you invested heart, body and soul in and which you believe in. I do trust that it is not a money making scheme although cash helps, but also to help women and men all over appear their best. Compared to the price of invasive surgery, your programs are well-priced. I also have no complaints about the amazing and caring customer service.

I do, however, honestly wish there was not so much opposition between the two camps because I feel we can all always learn from each other in life and that turmoil just creates stress which is not good for anyone's well-being. Also seeing all of this going on is very scary to a newbie like me because honestly I just want advice and guidance, not people accusing nor fighting around me or because of me, or telling me bad things about other people. It makes me feel quite sad to be quite honest and that is not good for anyone's business. After reading all of this, both camps criticizing each other, I sometimes feel I should just avoid face exercising and try gadgets or fillers for my face but this is not what I really want!

I think with any face system one can have good results. Just like going to the gym and running for 15 minutes twice a week, is not ideal, better to go for 45 mins X 3 a week to lose weight but even a 15 minute run X 2 a week or a brisk walk weekly is better than sitting in front of the telly eating junk food day in day out.

However I have of late, been leaning towards CFF just because I have seen people like Noni, clearly get great results and because of the ease of exercising. I see that it is a simple, easy program to do and Carolyn has heaps of photos of people with good results. It seems like a simple system that someone with no knowledge of facial muscles can very quickly pick up and start with not too many problems without having to know where exactly a zyg this or a "zag-that" is located. I think Carolyn has done us all a service in creating a very neat little program that is well explained and easy to do. I find the exercises very obvious and well-formulated. I think this is a very good choice for someone who wants something user friendly and which does not demand incredible knowledge, time nor commitment.

FE seems like a system where one can get excellent results, if one knows what one is doing! For a beginner it is very complicated, and honestly overwhelming sometimes! I feel like I need a whole education in the musculature of the face and I don't have time to do that, unlike you Deb, I know your knowledge is expansive. For FE, unlike CFF, you need to put your thumb (or fingers) in exactly the right place, isolate the right muscle, contract it correctly and use the right resistance. That is not an easy thing to do for someone who has no idea where to begin! Some muscles admittedly are logistically available or easy to find- like the chin, jaw work outs or caninus exercises- but some, primarily the cheek ones are very complex.

The DVD is useful but goes very fast, it's very hard to see where Audrey is putting her thumb, how she is moving her muscle, one she's locked on, its pretty much impossible to judge anything. You really could use some videos of the style that loli has that show the muscle moving alone etc. Her post on the zyg major made me realise I was doing everything all wrong. It may be self-evident to a qualified person like you Deb, but trust me for an unqualified person, it is very very hard to know what, where, how. The book gives some idea but once again there is only one pic per exercise and once again Loli's diagrams with the arrows in red and black give a much better picture and I wish she did that for all the exercises and that it was in your FE book. If you created a 4th edition, it would be amazing to have Loli's diagrams of inside and outside the face, her explanations (in better English Wink

, her little videos prior to each exercise, which show the muscle contraction on its own etc exactly as she does in her posts on FE forum. That would really be of great service!

Also from what I understand, muscles, much like muscles in the body sit differently on different people and can be smaller, bigger, harder to activate and locate according to our body/face type. Plus since these facial muscles can be small (esp on someone like me who is petite), locating a little muscle you've never heard of in your life before is arduous. I keep thinking, is that a muscle or not? If so is it the right one?

Ultimately I think damage can be done if one is not activating nor locating muscles correctly and an unattractive build can be had which is where the problem occurs. Also I see that sometimes it is very hard to isolate one muscle or maybe it is so weak that another one compensates and for this reason, once again the result can be negative.

I am an avid athlete and have competed for several years in the past. Today I dont compete but train very intensely. I do a lot of weights mostly compound movements, Olympic style exercises plus machines to isolate weak muscles. I see people in the gym making mistakes all the time which I know they pay for.

Here are 3 examples that I am sure can apply to FE

A) a person who deadlifts with bad form: terrible posture, a crooked back and is hurting himself without even knowing it, maybe even injuring his lumber in a very dangerous way.

B) the person who wants to train his legs fully and so stacks on the weight and then squats but only goes a quarter of the way down (not below parallel) so in fact is barely working out his quads, hamstrings, glutes at all.

C) a person who has very strong shoulders, biceps and tris and does a chest exercise but does not know how to activate their pecs or their pecs are so weak that when they do their exercise they instead (or maybe the body compensates by letting them) use all arms and shoulders and not pecs.

I am sure all these scenarios are applicable for FE
a) would be someone who is using an improper movement -bad form- and is damaging themselves through it, worsening their face

b) would be someone who does not do the movement to its full potential and so misses out on muscle activation and therefore gets little or no results

c) would be someone who is doing a movement but not knowing how to isolate properly or because their muscle is weak is actually strengthening already strong muscles thus bulking up in an area where they already are strong and remaining weak in the area they wanted to address thus getting an awkward looking face.

I am not saying FE is a bad system, I think its great if you know what you are doing. But it demands very good technique, muscle knowledge and an ability to understand one's weakness and strengths.

I think it is necessary to learn to customise the work out and I could apply this to CFF too. I do think working out the mouth too much is very dangerous, the amount of times I've seen people write about monkey mouth!!! Nobody wants to return to the apes!

A further point is: I would never go to a gym and do all the machines at once, I customise my works out very specifically and periodically change them according to my needs. I believe we should all work out all the muscles in our bodies but according to how much each area needs it. I would never do lat isolation exercises, I find the compound movements I do address my lats and I only want them to be minimally addressed otherwise I'd look like a man!

Example D:
I have an amazingly strong upper body and so build muscle very fast, I even avoid doing hanging ab exercises too much -where I grip onto the overhead rack to keep myself in place- as my shoulders tend to bulk very fast. I never do shoulder isolation exercises, even after squatting and deadlifting my biceps, triceps and shoulders bulge like crazy and I get 'the vein'. This is why sometimes I even take a week off training my biceps and triceps because otherwise I get the man look and as I am petite it looks wrong. I never train my chest in isolation as I find other compound movements I do take care of it. Once again when I trained it in isolation even when I was benching weekly, I saw very fast how my breasts became square and hard, it looked terrible and did not benefit me.
On the other hand I work out my legs every week very hard, and preferably twice a week. I make sure I never skip my calves as they are the weakest link and tend to build so slowly (my training friend on the other hand never trains their calves, nor runs, nor does anything you'd expect to build calves and they have the biggest calves I've ever seen!). As a result of my highly customised work outs my legs look great but I always have to focus on my calves and targetting each muscle within the calf with different and varying exercises.

I can appreciate how all of this would apply to someone's face, some people have great cheek bones and should go easy on them perhaps, others may have a weak chin and need to consistently work on that. But no program that I've seen really addresses this issue and of course it is hard for a program to do that, as no one knows what needs someone else will have, unless they train them.

This brings me to my next point: Training is vital for most resistance exercise.

I know exactly what I am doing in the gym and even though I am not a trainer, I could do a better job than many whom I see giving lessons with bad, horrible form! There are many bad trainers who do not understand form nor muscle relation properly. Because I know what I'm doing I reap great benefits but I see plenty of people not get very good results when they do things with bad form. I see people trained by trainers who get less good results than I.

I am lucky that I was trained by a group of amazing guys who shouted at me until my form was perfect and who noted all my weaknesses and made me address them and who explained in detail how to work out correctly, target muscles with perfect form -these are key aspects and without knowing the how, the why and where it is hard to succeed.
I would not advise anyone to go to the gym and start squatting with no idea of what they are doing. They will likely cause themselves harm unless they are doing only the most simple of movements. I've even see people run incorrectly, with rounded shoulders, a hunched neck...

I think training is a key component for FE and I have contacted Loli on FE asking her for lessons as not only do I speak decent Spanish Smile

but she is the only trainer who I trust because I have witnessed how in-depth her knowledge is and how good she is at explaining her point even if English is not her first language. She consistently posts diagrams, videos show what a movement should be, explanations which explain exactly how to locate a muscle, which way to pull it, where the contraction should be, why we need to focus on some muscles more than others because of their relationship. She said something about being careful of not overworking buccs and triangularis as if they are too strong they can pull on zyg- my understanding may be iffy here but I understand she has a very clear conception of muscle relationship which is essential to working out. Her explanations are amazing and she clearly knows what she is doing. The results are also visible in her face.

I honestly would only trust someone that can explain to me in simple but detailed terms.
I have seen how Loli spends time adjusting not only her work outs but those of her clients and how her muscle generator program device thingy seems to enable her to get a view of the dynamic nature of muscle movement.
I am a quick learner but I need someone to explain to me in detail, I also need someone I trust, who inspires me. I was a great athlete when competing and my results were not only through hard work but great coaching and a coach who inspired me and who I believed in.

If Loli can train me and the price is reasonable, I will definitely try FE as I do think it's a great program if you know what you are doing and I am sure with the right guidance I could get amazing results.

However I am pretty happy with my face barring a few lines and so for the moment I need to take measures to make sure I enhance what I have but also address my weaknesses, I'm sure an easy to use program like CFF can address those issues without me breaking my back over how to isolate a muscle. Most of all, I need to have the tools to easily do that, with support and guidance through that process.

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:08 am

Deb, thank you for your understanding post. I appreciate the time you have put into reading through my response.

CM, once again I did not mean to stir the pot, it is only now that I have become aware of the tensions between CFF and FE. I am new to the forum as you can see and was not aware there was such strong rivalry. As Claudia points out, I just wanted some advice and did not wish to create problems just get some feedback from an outside source (outside of FE and CFF). As I said, I think both CFF and FE are great systems.

Also it seems according to Sean that I have made some errors in understanding the word isotonic, please take it for a newbie's lack of knowledge.
To whit, if I have received advice about FE it is true that my sources have largely been flexers not trainers although info gleaned from the boards has been useful, as I said I find Loli's posts great. Sean I have received free advice but since I paid for your program I would expect advice, repeatedly I have been told to go on the forum and use it as a resource. I have also been told to contact trainers which once again I have done.

I wrote to Loli in Spanish 2 days ago and asked her to give me lessons for which I would pay, gladly! I have not heard back. So believe me, I would love to give FE a proper chance but as I said I am a bit overwhelmed by doing it solo and without proper knowledge of what I am doing. I truly hope Loli will reply to me and when I am making great progress I can report back on it on EDS and elsewhere so that the general public will be aware of my feedback and thoughts.

On the other hand, I received a private message from someone whose name I cannot reveal on their request. They have been very helpful in trying to advise me, saying that I should have been more careful, that my post has stirred the pot too much and therefore I will undoubtedly be penalised and Loli will probably be advised to not give me lessons! I really hope this is far from the case. That would make me very sad and truly give me cause for concern.

I am trying to be as honest and communicative about all, even PMs, so that everything is bought to the light. I seem to have upset several people albeit giving a chance for others to also engage in dialogue and I think dialogue and communication is always useful so that we learn what mistakes not to make again. I have been getting some strange accusations, theresamary not sure what you are getting at. I am glad I have given the pseudonym VirginiaWhite, as it sounds like some people would like to bazooka me! Incurring wrath, as I have said numerous times, is not my goal. I'm even wondering whether I should write this. I have honestly been thinking of never writing a word again on this forum! But aren't forums supposed to help us to open up our hearts, minds and thoughts, not clamp them down because we are afraid of what others think????

My goal is to get guidance and train properly. As I stated, I have contacted a trainer directly for tuition. I hope I will have my request answered.

I initially felt saddened at the accusations, negative words being thrown in my direction- people believing me to be related to Noni, to have some kind of sabotage agenda. As I have said this kind of lambasting can put someone off all exercise programs forever: I'm innocently looking for advice and all of a sudden people are accusing me of things and telling me I should have done this, not said that etc. Believe me it's not very pleasant and I don't think its very beneficial for anybody.

But I can see from Deb's kind post that such wild accusations and bad vibes do not reflect her own outlook. She has been gracious in her response and I hope we can all follow suit.

Accusations, bad vibes are not productive for anyone I've always believed carrying anger hurts yourself much more than it hurts the person you have directed your anger at, so it is one's best interests to free oneself of anger when it comes up.

I very much hope I will hear back, get a reply from Loli and that I'll be on the path to success soon with FE. That's what I wish for!!

If not I'll stick with CFF which as I have seen from Noni's tale and heard from others, is a tried, trusted, tested and easy system to do alone for a baffled newbie.

Bless you all and happy facial exercising!

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:35 am

no FE trainer has said to me CFF is an isotonic program. As I said I am a newbie I am not familiar with vocabulary.

Can we please not be angry, all chill out here and move on! This is such a silly fuss over nothing, a bunch of words in cyber space! Sean you dont have a wrinkle on your face, be happy and please spread the love of happy face exercising!! I have explained everything very clearly in my previous post. I have stated I misunderstood isotonic etc etc that I dont want trouble but it seems this has not been understood.

Claudia I appreciate your reply and I know you see I did not mean for any trouble! and I would like to pay Loli to help me! I know you give free advice but I am prepared to fork out, so it is clear I want to advocate you.

Bad energy is not good so now maybe we can all go do something we enjoy and that brings goodness, smiles and happiness to our day and our planet!!! Zen!!!!!

free skin care · Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:39 pm

The way I see it, Virginia probably made some incorrect conclusions from the informations she read (probably on FE forum and here) and summed them up in a somewhat clumsy statement. I know there is a wealth information on FE forum and it's easy to get lost and draw generic conclusions based on a particular case. And "FE people" that she claims have given her that bad advice could also be other uninformed trainees... I agree that when incorrect claims are made, one should defend oneself and clearly state what is the truth, but I believe this should be done professionally and without accusations.

I also know that you try your best to customize your suggestions to each particular case which must take a lot of time and effort from your side, and I can imagine that it can be quite frustrating when on top of everything you do, you get a bad review here. But it is unrealistic to expect that all of your customers will be happy with the product. And just because a person is unsatisfied with the product, does not necessarily mean that this person is dishonest, malicious and intentionally trying to harm your business. In my opinion, the way you handle accusations and false assertions is more important than these false statements themselves.

SeanySeanUK wrote:

You know I’ve no problem with people coming and asking for advice, without doubt, but when there is serious issues going on as Virginia would have us believe, I find it strange that they wouldn’t make contact with a trainer (like you did yourself Agatha) to seek advice or even bring it up on the forum for example.

Likewise when someone goes onto a forum and creates a thread with the heading “Bad experience with Flex Effect” and then goes on to make several statements that are incorrect, its very misleading and confusing to people. For example Virigina claims in this thread that we at FlexEffect have labelled “CFF is no good because it is isotonic” which is completely false and of course if Carolyn was to read that, it would be entirely understandable that she would be upset. We don’t label her program as Isotonic, and never would. Likewise we don’t tell people to just preserve with the exercises (and that’s something that has been mentioned in the past about someones experience prior to me joining FE back in 2006) and never have done so. You yourself have seen on the forum that we take into account everything when it comes to a person from their exercising to lifestyle and even diet and nutrition. We would never make assertions to a person to just continuing on with their training. Likewise Virigina has said “many people have a bad time with FE” and attributed that to Carolyn, but I know from my email the other day she is just as unbiased as we are for sure and likewise wouldn’t make such a statement.

So you do have to wonder about the authenticity of someone’s intention when making such statements. There isn’t a war amongst programs between the trainers and founders of programs, and nor should there be. We’re all different and have different goals which is great. When people contact me, I listen and ask questions and sometimes will advise them to try out a different program so they have an idea of facial exercises but rarely would we give the information that Virigina claims we have given in this thread to newbies (such as telling her to combine programs), so in many ways we’ve got to be on our guards because there is an intention (albeit it might not be a conscious one) but of creating friction here between two established systems.

Likewise its been said by Virigina “it seems hard to get non-biased advice”, and yet she’s got advice from Carolyn, and would have others believe she’s had advice from us at FE (all of which I'm guessing has been free and she's not paid for?), but I’ve checked my emails and I’ve got nothing from a Virginia White. Looking at the forum, we’ve got no Virginia White nor does there appear to be anyone talking about these issues so you can understand why we would be somewhat confused!

Sean

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