DermaRoller
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:22 pm

Hi everyone, I've read most of this thread, but it was a few months ago. Has anybody here had success with rolling their upper lids? If I do roll there, should I hold the skin taut so I can roll all of it? Most of the articles I've read only mention rolling the lower lids, so I hope it's ok to roll the upper ones. Thanks for any advice or information.

free skin care · Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:07 am

packratmack wrote:

Hi everyone, I've read most of this thread, but it was a few months ago. Has anybody here had success with rolling their upper lids? If I do roll there, should I hold the skin taut so I can roll all of it? Most of the articles I've read only mention rolling the lower lids, so I hope it's ok to roll the upper ones. Thanks for any advice or information.

Hi PRM, you're right all the articles I've seen do only refer to lower lids but I'd be worried there's a reason for this. I haven't found anything that says you can't roll upper lids but.... What size DR are you planning on using bearing in mind it's the thinnest skin on the body?

free skin care · Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:36 am

Found this article by a plastic surgeon.
It's more for anyone sitting on the fence....

Archive for the 'percutaneous collagen induction' Category

August 14, 2009
Skin Rejuvenation: Percutaneous Collagen Induction (PCI) vs. Laser
Author: barryeppley
Skin rejuvenation is the most frequently requested cosmetic facial procedure, largely by women of ages 35 and above. As the skin starts to look dull and develop those first few wrinkles, doing something to help the skin look better becomes a consideration. The term, skin rejuvenation, encompasses a wide variety of office-based procedures that all aim to make the skin look fresher and reduce wrinkles.

Most commonly, the most effective skin rejuvenation methods include those that exfoliate (remove) the outer layers and allow it to heal with a new outer layer. These methods include traditional chemical peels and different forms of laser resurfacing. All of these procedures can be done in a wide variety of depths, which are individually chosen based on the patient’s tolerance for recovery and the speed at which they want to see improvement.

Laser and peels, however, remove skin layers through a thermal (heat or acidic) process which induces an injury. Healing of that injury results in a new outer skin layer but is also responsible for the recovery seen. (redness, peeling, tenderness, etc.) Enter the concept of percutaneous collagen induction (PCI) therapy, a different method of skin rejuvenation that uses a somewhat different approach. This procedure uses a rolling device with protruding needles to create thousands of tiny punctures into the outer layers of the skin. (very much like aerating your lawn) These microscopic injuries induce the release of growth factors and cytokines, recognized wound healing agents, that help to stimulate new collagen regeneration. Because the ‘cuts’ are done without heat, they heal faster with less recovery than any thermal method.

PCI is best compared to fractional laser resurfacing is that it creates tiny holes or cuts in the skin. Fractional laser procedures makes these cuts with the heat of the laser which leaves behind a wider zone of dead tissue (estimated to be 3 to 8 times wider than the hole) which must also heal. The ‘cauterized’ hole edges theoretically are sealed from releasing cell factors that are helpful in the regenerative process. In essence, some scar is left behind from the process.. PCI, conversely, simply clefts the skin without any heat, which more readily allows valuable cell factors to be released and work on the exposed collagen, resulting in regeneration with less scar healing.

The debate between a high-tech approach (fractional laser) and a low-tech approach (PCI) for skin rejuvenation is ongoing and may become more hotly (no pun intended!) contested in the future. Until a direct comparison in patients is done, this debate will be based on conjecture, extrapolated science, and economics until then. Those issues aside, I find PCI theoretically appealing and with some real clinical benefits. And when I talk about clinical benefits, I am not talking about which is better in terms of skin rejuvenation.

PCI offers less recovery than any laser method and that, for some patients, is a real plus. Many patients would embark on more aggressive skin rejuvenation programs if they didn’t have persistent redness and peeling…not to mention the discomfort of the procedure. (and all laser procedures involve some discomfort, no matter how it is managed, due to the heat) Furthermore, because PCI does not strip off the outer layer of the skin, it offers an advantage of safety and virtual elimination of complications. You can’t have a burn injury if you aren’t doing any burning. This indicates that PCI can be used anywhere on the body unlike laser methods. Also, with no outer layer of skin removed, even partially, this exposes the patient to no risk for skin sensitivity after and has no potential for any pigment changes. (it can be used on all skin types)

Several non-burning questions remain, however, on the effectiveness of PCI? How many treatments are needed to see improvement? What is the best depth of needles and the spacing of them on the wheel? What topical products should ideally be used afterward? The science of PCI remains a fertile area for investigation and much of this information is not yet known. The role of PCI in skin rejuvenation has not been defined, unlike laser technology. This is largely a function of economics. The large number of lasers that are marketed and exist in clinical practices provides a disincentive for the PCI bandwagon.

Despite these drawbacks, I remain both intrigued and encouraged about PCI in my Indianapolis plastic surgery and spa practice. PCI and laser treatments are not mutually exclusive. Light laser micropeeling (less than 50 microns) combined with PCI may capture the best of both worlds.

Dr. Barry Eppley

Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:07 pm

superdogg wrote:

go to ebay type z mart derma roller a chinses store. I buy mine for $9.99...And it works

Hi Superdogg,

Can you confirm the search terms? I couldn't find this on Ebay.

I did find "MicroNeedle" and "MT Derm" rollers when searching Ebay for derma roller. These rollers are pretty inexpensive, available in different needle sizes, and the seller ratings are high. Just wondering if anyone's had any experience with these brands, or are people on this board mostly sticking with the Dr Roller? Is there a big difference in quality?

As a newbie hoping to start rolling, I'm perplexed about which roller to buy - seems you can spend as much or as little as you want, but it's hard to judge the quality.

Thanks in advance!

KrazyKatLady Smile

free skin care · Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:01 pm

KrazyKatLadyAUE wrote:

superdogg wrote:

go to ebay type z mart derma roller a chinses store. I buy mine for $9.99...And it works

Hi Superdogg,

Can you confirm the search terms? I couldn't find this on Ebay.

I did find "MicroNeedle" and "MT Derm" rollers when searching Ebay for derma roller. These rollers are pretty inexpensive, available in different needle sizes, and the seller ratings are high. Just wondering if anyone's had any experience with these brands, or are people on this board mostly sticking with the Dr Roller? Is there a big difference in quality?

As a newbie hoping to start rolling, I'm perplexed about which roller to buy - seems you can spend as much or as little as you want, but it's hard to judge the quality.

Thanks in advance!

KrazyKatLady Smile

KKL: Here is a link to the zmart store on eBay:

http://stores.ebay.com/Zmartbeauty-Professional-Trading

HTH! ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:22 am

Miranda, thank you for all the information. I'm sorry you are having problems from your roll. Please keep us posted. I'm interested to see if it turns out to be a good thing once the swelling goes down.

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:15 am

Just to keep you in touch with my moment of madness with the DR last Sunday:

The swelling has subsided.
I still have 'track' marks on my jaw!
Slight peeling all over from Retin A which I believe has been kept at bay by the hempseed oil.
Skin feels tight and slightly itchy, the bottom part of my face is worse - but then this is where I rolled more as it hurt too much on the bony parts (forehead, cheekbones).
Skin is starting to glow again!
Had cracks developing on sides of lips and by nose, which is from the Retin A but holding that off too (8 hour cream + HSO).
I guess I won't see true results (plumper skin? clearer skin? less lines? smaller pores?) for another few months. Smile

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:44 am

This is Miranda wrote:

Just to keep you in touch with my moment of madness with the DR last Sunday:

The swelling has subsided.
I still have 'track' marks on my jaw!
Slight peeling all over from Retin A which I believe has been kept at bay by the hempseed oil.
Skin feels tight and slightly itchy, the bottom part of my face is worse - but then this is where I rolled more as it hurt too much on the bony parts (forehead, cheekbones).
Skin is starting to glow again!
Had cracks developing on sides of lips and by nose, which is from the Retin A but holding that off too (8 hour cream + HSO).
I guess I won't see true results (plumper skin? clearer skin? less lines? smaller pores?) for another few months. Smile

Hi, Miranda. You just rolled a bit too hard on the lower face, and when you rolled in the retin-a, you were bound to get more of a reaction than when you apply it topically. I think, once the reaction from the retin-a (redness, cracks, maybe a little peeling) has subsided and your skin is no longer swollen, that you will be amazed at what that roll did. I certainly don't believe it will take months for you to see the results. Light rolling with small needles gives fairly impressive immediate results. How many times did you roll back and forth on each area? I know that matters as well, especially when you are rolling for product penetration. BTW, I did start a thread relating to product penetration rolling only. Hang in there, and keep applying the hempseed oil - you will be gorgeous again in a few days! ~ JJ Very Happy

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:36 pm

jjbeacham wrote:

How many times did you roll back and forth on each area?
I know that matters as well, especially when you are rolling for product penetration. BTW, I did start a thread relating to product penetration rolling only.

Hi JJ
Thanks for the encouraging words! I've no idea how many times I rolled back and forth. I didn't know there was a protocol.

Can you post the link for the new thread? I can't find it.

Many thanks!

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:45 pm

This is Miranda wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

How many times did you roll back and forth on each area?
I know that matters as well, especially when you are rolling for product penetration. BTW, I did start a thread relating to product penetration rolling only.

Hi JJ
Thanks for the encouraging words! I've no idea how many times I rolled back and forth. I didn't know there was a protocol.

Can you post the link for the new thread? I can't find it.

Many thanks!

Miranda, from what I have read, product penetration rolling is just 4-5 times back and forth in each direction. The more intense rolling is 10 times back and forth in each direction, if I'm not mistaken. Here is the link to the Product Penetration Rolling thread: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36278 HTH ~ JJ

Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:05 pm

Hi All... I thought I will share a bit of my rolling experience Smile

I ordered roller from Sarah V. 1 is 0.25 and 1 is 1.5mm. ( I will try to post the pics of the roller, which I think looking quite good and solid) these actually not my first roller. I ordered 1 from nova skincare which is no good... and I actually ordered the beauty roller for body-- this one is very convenient if you want to use for your body... save more time... but only use this once because I didn't manage to order the ingredient for the serum I want (to be exact, didnt manage to make up my mind which recipe to make and to or to order from where) ;P But now I have Smile

I tried to use the single needle on my chicken pox scar. OMG I can't stand it. I really need a numbing cream. I can't imagine using the 1.5mm and ROLL it without numbing cream ;( so I stop after the 3rd prick of the single needle. It's too much pain, maybe I'm too sensitive ;(

I roll the 0.25 all over my face though... it is not that painfull... and because my order from skinactives has not arrived, I just mix the L-ascorbic acid they sent with water. then apply it all over my face. It's very itchy-sore all over my face. but I can still stand it, it's all good...
I get slight redness last night but in the morning its all gone... is it good/bad sign ;P because I heard many people get the swelling etc.. so maybe I didnt roll enough?

I will try to do it again everyday for 1 week and see how it goes Wink

... My long term aim (for face) is a thicker skin and to reduce redness around my nose.... and to delay wrinkle.... my 1.5mm will be used to treat stretch mark... not sure where to get the numbing cream though ;P

Btw, I can't find distilled water in the pharmacy (I'm in Melbourne) so I used filtered water for the serum... I hope it's alright... because I only make a bit and it's finished last night... I apply the leftover for my hands and legs...
Any comments/suggestion are welcomed Smile

Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:51 pm

Thank you!

jjbeacham wrote:

KrazyKatLadyAUE wrote:

superdogg wrote:

go to ebay type z mart derma roller a chinses store. I buy mine for $9.99...And it works

Hi Superdogg,

Can you confirm the search terms? I couldn't find this on Ebay.

I did find "MicroNeedle" and "MT Derm" rollers when searching Ebay for derma roller. These rollers are pretty inexpensive, available in different needle sizes, and the seller ratings are high. Just wondering if anyone's had any experience with these brands, or are people on this board mostly sticking with the Dr Roller? Is there a big difference in quality?

As a newbie hoping to start rolling, I'm perplexed about which roller to buy - seems you can spend as much or as little as you want, but it's hard to judge the quality.

Thanks in advance!

KrazyKatLady Smile

KKL: Here is a link to the zmart store on eBay:

HTH! ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:39 pm

I was wondering whether someone who has experience and had success with the dermaroller would perhaps consider starting up a new thread with rolling protocols, with tips such as where to buy, what size to buy in order address what purpose, rolling pattern, how hard to press, how often to roll, whether or not one should see blood spots, what products to use with the roller, what to expect immediately afterwards... this thread is just getting so difficult to navigate!

I've used the 1.5mm dermaroller 4x since August (once a month rolls), using no numbing cream, pressing medium-hard I'd say, and applying .025% retin-a afterwards... and I haven't really seen any changes, certainly nothing like the CIT pictures that I've seen online! Still, I'm planning on rolling twice more, (once in December, once in January) and hoping that the changes will come, perhaps more gradually?

Immediately after the roll I appear a bit red & swollen, which lasts until the next day for me. The day after that my skin starts to appear very nice, as though I've had a nice facial... however, the effect fades within a few days.

My skin is not really in bad condition, but I am hoping to address some hyperpigementation on my cheeks. Still, so far, not much.

(By the way Miranda, I had suspected that you were probably very attractive, and the picture you posted-- without your eyes-- has proven me correct!)

free skin care · Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:59 pm

This is Miranda - I'm certainly no expert when it comes to dermarolling, but I believe that Retin A is the wrong form of A according to Des Fernandes. He uses retinyl palmitate.
HTH

Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:15 pm

Hi Neondaze,
I've purchased retinyl palmitate too because I was afraid retin-a would be too strong for my skin.... But I don't know how to put it into a serum? Can you help me with some ideas how to make it into a serum? thanks a lot Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:52 am

neondaze wrote:

This is Miranda - I'm certainly no expert when it comes to dermarolling, but I believe that Retin A is the wrong form of A according to Des Fernandes. He uses retinyl palmitate.
HTH

Hi Neondaze,
I've taken this from Dr. Fernandes article on PCI...

"Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible."

I think, certainly in this article, he leaves it open as to whether you use Retin-A or another form. To me, he isn't dismissing it, just saying you don't have to use it.

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:40 am

This is Miranda wrote:

neondaze wrote:

This is Miranda - I'm certainly no expert when it comes to dermarolling, but I believe that Retin A is the wrong form of A according to Des Fernandes. He uses retinyl palmitate.
HTH

Hi Neondaze,
I've taken this from Dr. Fernandes article on PCI...

"Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible."

I think, certainly in this article, he leaves it open as to whether you use Retin-A or another form. To me, he isn't dismissing it, just saying you don't have to use it.

Dr. Fernandes is talking about how to prep your skin for a roll in that article, I believe. (minimum of 6 weeks with A and C prior to rolling to get the best results.) He does not believe in acids used after a roll or to penetrate them in, which is why his Environ products contain C and A derrivatives. I did send an email to him regarding using the small roller to penetrate products and the use of l-ascorbic acid with that type of roll, and hope to hear back at the end of November, as he was out of the country until then. I will post what he replies.

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:11 am

rollergal wrote:

Hi All... I thought I will share a bit of my rolling experience Smile

I ordered roller from Sarah V. 1 is 0.25 and 1 is 1.5mm. ( I will try to post the pics of the roller, which I think looking quite good and solid) these actually not my first roller. I ordered 1 from nova skincare which is no good... and I actually ordered the beauty roller for body-- this one is very convenient if you want to use for your body... save more time... but only use this once because I didn't manage to order the ingredient for the serum I want (to be exact, didnt manage to make up my mind which recipe to make and to or to order from where) ;P But now I have Smile

I tried to use the single needle on my chicken pox scar. OMG I can't stand it. I really need a numbing cream. I can't imagine using the 1.5mm and ROLL it without numbing cream ;( so I stop after the 3rd prick of the single needle. It's too much pain, maybe I'm too sensitive ;(

I roll the 0.25 all over my face though... it is not that painfull... and because my order from skinactives has not arrived, I just mix the L-ascorbic acid they sent with water. then apply it all over my face. It's very itchy-sore all over my face. but I can still stand it, it's all good...
I get slight redness last night but in the morning its all gone... is it good/bad sign ;P because I heard many people get the swelling etc.. so maybe I didnt roll enough?

I will try to do it again everyday for 1 week and see how it goes Wink

... My long term aim (for face) is a thicker skin and to reduce redness around my nose.... and to delay wrinkle.... my 1.5mm will be used to treat stretch mark... not sure where to get the numbing cream though ;P

Hi rollergal, I ordered from Sarah as well, and I liked the package and instructions she gave. There is no way I could use that single roller or any roller 1mm and up without numbing cream. I have now tried Lidocaine 15%, Tridocaine and Emla, and Emla is far superior in my mind. I ordered from CanadaDrugSuperstore.com. Regarding the swelling, I haven't done a .25mm roll, but I don't think you'll get too much swelling from that. I only got a tiny bit of swelling with a 1mm on my face, and that was mainly under my eyes. Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:13 am

rileygirl wrote:

This is Miranda wrote:

Hi Neondaze,
I've taken this from Dr. Fernandes article on PCI...

"Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible."

I think, certainly in this article, he leaves it open as to whether you use Retin-A or another form. To me, he isn't dismissing it, just saying you don't have to use it.

Dr. Fernandes is talking about how to prep your skin for a roll in that article, I believe. (minimum of 6 weeks with A and C prior to rolling to get the best results.) He does not believe in acids used after a roll or to penetrate them in, which is why his Environ products contain C and A derrivatives. I did send an email to him regarding using the small roller to penetrate products and the use of l-ascorbic acid with that type of roll, and hope to hear back at the end of November, as he was out of the country until then. I will post what he replies.

Yes RG you're right, he does talk about prepping with those but also adds later -

"After this serous leak has stopped, the skin is washed thoroughly and then covered with vitamin A, C, and E oil or cream (do not use ascorbic acid)."

It would be good to have this clarified further because as it stands, his directions are open to interpretation. Confused

And the great thing about your questions to him, is that there are no directions from him for simple rolling for product penetration (that I've seen anyway). Look forward to hearing his reply to you!

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:22 am

jeanleemarquis wrote:

I was wondering whether someone who has experience and had success with the dermaroller would perhaps consider starting up a new thread with rolling protocols, with tips such as where to buy, what size to buy in order address what purpose, rolling pattern, how hard to press, how often to roll, whether or not one should see blood spots, what products to use with the roller, what to expect immediately afterwards... this thread is just getting so difficult to navigate!

I've used the 1.5mm dermaroller 4x since August (once a month rolls), using no numbing cream, pressing medium-hard I'd say, and applying .025% retin-a afterwards... and I haven't really seen any changes, certainly nothing like the CIT pictures that I've seen online! Still, I'm planning on rolling twice more, (once in December, once in January) and hoping that the changes will come, perhaps more gradually?

Immediately after the roll I appear a bit red & swollen, which lasts until the next day for me. The day after that my skin starts to appear very nice, as though I've had a nice facial... however, the effect fades within a few days.

My skin is not really in bad condition, but I am hoping to address some hyperpigementation on my cheeks. Still, so far, not much.

(By the way Miranda, I had suspected that you were probably very attractive, and the picture you posted-- without your eyes-- has proven me correct!)

Hi JLM,
Thank you for your kind compliment, unfortunately I didn't look like this 2 days later after doing the dermaroll but I'm getting there again!
It sounds like you roll much the same way as me (1.5mm, no numbing, med hard) only differences are that I apply 0.1% retin-a after and remain red-ish for 2-3 days. I still have tight, tingly skin 4 days after my roll.
I'm intrigued that you haven't had any results. Are you only addressing hyperpigmentation? Have you not found your skin more plump or less lines (if you have any?).
It's good to hear the results from someone who has been doing it a few months. I have so much faith in DR'ing that I may be putting too much hope into it.

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:27 am

rollergal wrote:

Hi All... I thought I will share a bit of my rolling experience Smile

I ordered roller from Sarah V. 1 is 0.25 and 1 is 1.5mm. ( I will try to post the pics of the roller, which I think looking quite good and solid) these actually not my first roller. I ordered 1 from nova skincare which is no good... and I actually ordered the beauty roller for body-- this one is very convenient if you want to use for your body... save more time... but only use this once because I didn't manage to order the ingredient for the serum I want (to be exact, didnt manage to make up my mind which recipe to make and to or to order from where) ;P But now I have Smile

I tried to use the single needle on my chicken pox scar. OMG I can't stand it. I really need a numbing cream. I can't imagine using the 1.5mm and ROLL it without numbing cream ;( so I stop after the 3rd prick of the single needle. It's too much pain, maybe I'm too sensitive ;(

I roll the 0.25 all over my face though... it is not that painfull... and because my order from skinactives has not arrived, I just mix the L-ascorbic acid they sent with water. then apply it all over my face. It's very itchy-sore all over my face. but I can still stand it, it's all good...
I get slight redness last night but in the morning its all gone... is it good/bad sign ;P because I heard many people get the swelling etc.. so maybe I didnt roll enough?

I will try to do it again everyday for 1 week and see how it goes Wink

... My long term aim (for face) is a thicker skin and to reduce redness around my nose.... and to delay wrinkle.... my 1.5mm will be used to treat stretch mark... not sure where to get the numbing cream though ;P

Hi rollergal, I ordered from Sarah as well, and I liked the package and instructions she gave. There is no way I could use that single roller or any roller 1mm and up without numbing cream. I have now tried Lidocaine 15%, Tridocaine and Emla, and Emla is far superior in my mind. I ordered from CanadaDrugSuperstore.com. Regarding the swelling, I haven't done a .25mm roll, but I don't think you'll get too much swelling from that. I only got a tiny bit of swelling with a 1mm on my face, and that was mainly under my eyes. Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:43 am

Hi everyone My question is is it ok to use STOP device whilst dermarolling.I have rolled a couple of times with 1.5m but wondered can I encorporate my stop or should I wait a certain time?

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:17 pm

Re swelling when rolling the face - I think whether you swell or not has a lot to do with how many times you roll in each direction. Supposedly, you should roll 4-5 times in each direction (vertically, horizontally and both diagonals) for product penetration purposes. When I did it this way, I didn't have much swelling at all. However, when I rolled 10 times in each direction, I had lots of swelling and more redness, but within 24 hours both were gone. I would also imagine the amount of pressure applied will also determine whether you swell or not. When I rolled 10 times in each direction, I used very little pressure (much like simply dragging a finger across my face) but still got the swelling, which is why I am thinking the number of rolls has so much to do with the face swelling. ~ JJ

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:02 pm

Just to add to the conversation of how many rolls in each direction - I still have track marks on my jaw 4 days after rolling because it was much easier to roll across rather than going up/down & diagonal and I rolled across many times.

Never mind the swelling.... don't roll too much in one direction because you really don't want to have track marks over your face!!

free skin care · Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:12 pm

Thoughtful wrote:

Hi everyone My question is is it ok to use STOP device whilst dermarolling.I have rolled a couple of times with 1.5m but wondered can I encorporate my stop or should I wait a certain time?

I would wait until any inflammation has completely gone before using your STOP machine.

I would leave 6 /8 weeks between a dermaroll unless you are just using it for product penetration and use your STOP in between the treatments once all redness has gone.

PQ

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.