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free skin care · Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:47 am

{ Moderator: This thread relates to discussion started on the Stemulance thread found at http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=38226 }

On a side note, I just read that Osmosis is coming out with their own stem cell product with what sounds to be the same ingredient that is in Stemulation. So, maybe they are using a test tube version of stem cells?

free skin care · Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:59 am

rileygirl wrote:

On a side note, I just read that Osmosis is coming out with their own stem cell product with what sounds to be the same ingredient that is in Stemulation. So, maybe they are using a test tube version of stem cells?

Where did you read this Riley - do you have a link?

free skin care · Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:54 am

Keliu wrote:

Where did you read this Riley - do you have a link?

I read it on the Osmosis link here on EDS. Skippie posted about it. Same kind of cells were mentioned in her post. But, here is the link to Jo Ella Milan's site.

http://www.karinherzog-jmilan.com/Stem-Factor-is-Coming-Soon_p_726.html

Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:20 am

Hi Everyone,
I was asked to add my two cents to your post. If you have specific questions on stem cells in skincare, I would be happy to help. Stem cells do have to be injected, and they need to be your own. That procedure is about to become very common. However, we can get amazing results from the growth factors that stem cells secrete. That is where my focus is at the moment. We are using adult stem cells to make over 150 stable, potent growth factors that we liposome deliver into the skin. Since growth factors are large, the liposomal delivery makes a big difference, in fact it increases the penetration by ten-fold.
Please let me know if I can help further.
Thanks,

free skin care · Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:26 pm

Very interesting Ben - thank you for joining this discussion.

Perhaps you could tell us which ingredients to look for that incorporate this technology.

Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:04 pm

I would be happy to. We have utilized phosphatidylcholine as the liposome. The delicate nature of our growth factors prevents us from adding other actives but nothing else is needed. The growth factors have a 2 year stability because they come from the special process of culturing adult stem cells. The donors are carefully screened, by the way. There are over 150 growth factors so I will list a few here; Epidermal GF, Vascular Endothelial GF, Hepatocyte GF, Fibroblast GF 1-9, Insulin-like GF (part of HGH), Interleukins 1-13, Tumor Necrosis factor Alpha and Beta....
Basically everything your skin needs to behave like a teenager again...without the acne Smile

free skin care · Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:12 pm

Ben - could I ask what your field of expertise is and if you are affiliated with any of the products we are discussing on this thread.

free skin care · Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:22 pm

Ben Johnson, MD wrote:

There are over 150 growth factors so I will list a few here; Epidermal GF, Vascular Endothelial GF, Hepatocyte GF, Fibroblast GF 1-9, Insulin-like GF (part of HGH), Interleukins 1-13, Tumor Necrosis factor Alpha and Beta....
Basically everything your skin needs to behave like a teenager again...without the acne Smile

Could there be any adverse reaction from using so many growth factors in 1 product?

Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:01 am

Dr. Johnson,
I'm glad you're here! Looking forward to reading your posts.

Love your book Very Happy

free skin care · Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:26 am

Hello Dr. Johnson,

A response to the following would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://blog.asapskinproducts.com/2009/11/exfoliation-and-fruit-acids-revisited.html

free skin care · Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Hello Dr. Johnson,

A response to the following would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://blog.asapskinproducts.com/2009/11/exfoliation-and-fruit-acids-revisited.html

Great find Dark Moon! I have been a patient of Dr Douglas Grose in the past - he practices at a local clinic - and I respect his opinion unequivocally.

free skin care · Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:30 am

Keliu wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Hello Dr. Johnson,

A response to the following would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://blog.asapskinproducts.com/2009/11/exfoliation-and-fruit-acids-revisited.html

Great find Dark Moon! I have been a patient of Dr Douglas Grose in the past - he practices at a local clinic - and I respect his opinion unequivocally.

Keliu,

I respect your opinion so very much, you're posts are always honest and informative. The fact you have actually seen and trust Dr. Grose verifies what he has posted on the site I linked to as valid in my mind at least.
BTW I had to go to page 6 of Google to find an unbiased review on Osmosis as all earlier sites are either their own sites or other sites selling the line!

free skin care · Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:52 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Ben Johnson, MD wrote:

There are over 150 growth factors so I will list a few here; Epidermal GF, Vascular Endothelial GF, Hepatocyte GF, Fibroblast GF 1-9, Insulin-like GF (part of HGH), Interleukins 1-13, Tumor Necrosis factor Alpha and Beta....
Basically everything your skin needs to behave like a teenager again...without the acne Smile

Could there be any adverse reaction from using so many growth factors in 1 product?

Hmmm ... maybe the count should be 387 growth factors? This is from "An Open Letter from Dr. Ben Johnson" I found online:

LipoStem

This product will become a major part of the Osmosis protocol. We are using adult mesenchymal stem cells (which have been shown to produce as many as 387 growth factors), all harvested through an advanced, exclusive competitive farming process whereby the growth media contains these powerful growth factors in a highly stable 3D structure. The idea is simply that aging and other skin conditions are essentially wounds and we are looking to advance wound healing dramatically by a four-step process of protecting the skin and its barrier, feeding the skin, maximizing fibroblast activity and nourishing the dermis with critical wound healing growth factors.

http://www.osmosisskincare.co.nz/news/an-open-letter-from-dr-ben-johnson.html

JoElla has this same information on her website (although she calls the new product "Stem Factor") found here:

http://www.karinherzog-jmilan.com/Stem-Factor-is-Coming-Soon_p_726.html

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:06 pm

The literature apparently supports that as many as 387 growth factors may be released from mesenchymal stem cells. Since we are only testing for 150, I thought I would remain conservative in my estimate. that "letter" was before I finalized my presentation of the product.
I have not heard of Stemulation but if can check it out for you.
I am the owner of Osmosis, I was not trying to hide that fact. I have been told that participating in these discussions is beneficial for your questions to be answered.
I know that we are presenting some different technology and sometimes the information can be confusing.
As far as adverse reactions go, I think that is an intelligent question that I do not have the final answer on. I know that only positive benefits have been reported with some seeing no change but I suppose it is possible to overcharge the immune system. I think the reason that this has not happened is because the penetration is limited to a fraction of the actual serum.

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:24 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Hello Dr. Johnson,

A response to the following would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

http://blog.asapskinproducts.com/2009/11/exfoliation-and-fruit-acids-revisited.html

I thought I responded to this link but I do not see my answer. Here is another effort:

I found his suggestion that describing the pitfalls of exfoliation as being a marketing strategy to be offensive. Ironically, it has been the fruit acid craze that has fooled the public. There is no evidence that AHA's reduces aging. There is only evidence that AHA's reduce some of the signs of aging. Each one of those signs can be explained. Just one example; glycolic acid added to a wrinkle and almost immediately makes that wrinkle look better... this is not new collagen... this result is from adding inflammation to the skin which plumps the skin. Collagen takes 3-4 weeks to build.
I ask all of you, are you getting younger? Look at the skin cancer rate, up 66%. All skin conditions are on the rise. Inflammation causes aging, adding more will only make it worse. In addition, the connection of acid and UV is proven, there are many more free radicals firing when skin is exposed by acids or exfoliation. No doctor or esthetician I know has ever challenged that point. If there are more free radicals, then we need only look to the 1000's of research articles identifying free radicals as the source of aging and cancer.
Why do men not age on there cheeks when they shave? Good question. Melanin. That's right, men have dense, melanin filled hair follicles at the surface of their skin that keep the exfoliated skin from aging fast. Just like melanin keeps african americans from getting wrinkles until they are 60.
I did formulate Cosmedix. I did believe in exfoliation. The realization that I was making a mistake came later. My "gentle exfoliating cleanser" is not exfoliating because it uses enzymes at miniscule doses to barely digest a few loose proteins (corneocytes). However, I do have one exfoliating mask. It uses cranberry enzymes and l-lactic acid at 5%. I do it for the die-hards and ask them to use it sparingly Smile

Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:34 pm

I cannot tell from the Stemulation website if it is a similar growth media. They mention mesenchymal stem cells but they talk more about pieces of stem cells and some antioxidant more than they do about the growth factors. There are many ways to make and gather stem cell growth media and there is a wide variety in purity/quality/efficacy. My initial take is that this product is not similar to what we offer and it definitely does not have the liposomal delivery that I feel is essential for proper penetration of these large growth factors.

free skin care · Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:46 am

Ben Johnson, MD wrote:

As far as adverse reactions go, I think that is an intelligent question that I do not have the final answer on.

Thank you. My concern is more what effects it will have on say someone who has had skin cancer, or who is predisposed to certain cancers, etc.

Do you happen to have any studies that you haVE done and can show us on this product?

Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:45 am

That is a valid concern. No studies have been done on this collection of growth factors but there was some evidence that EGF, on its own, can encourage an existing cancer. For me the argument for using 150+ growth factors is two-pronged; we get tumor fighting growth factors included in the mix from these stem cells which should reduce skin cancer, not encourage it and two, we are replenishing existing growth factors populations that decline over time so there is not an abnormal level of them, simply a more youthful one.

free skin care · Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:36 pm

Ben Johnson, MD wrote:

There is no evidence that AHA's reduces aging. There is only evidence that AHA's reduce some of the signs of aging. Each one of those signs can be explained. Just one example; glycolic acid added to a wrinkle and almost immediately makes that wrinkle look better... this is not new collagen... this result is from adding inflammation to the skin which plumps the skin. Collagen takes 3-4 weeks to build.

The study below indicates that skin thickness is increased, elastic fibers are improved and collagen density is improved with AHAs. Specifically notes "no inflamation present". The study was 6 months in duration. It won't won't turn the clock back, but I'm good with just looking younger!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8642081

BACKGROUND: alpha-Hydroxy acids (AHAs) have been reported to improve aging skin. The mechanisms of action of AHAs on epidermal and dermal compartments need clarification.

OBJECTIVE: Our purpose was to determine the effects of AHAs on photoaged human skin by clinical and microanalytic means.

METHODS: Patients applied a lotion containing 25% glycolic, lactic, or citric acid to one forearm and a placebo lotion to the opposite forearm for an average of 6 months. Thickness of forearm skin was measured throughout the study. Biopsy specimens from both forearms were processed for analysis at the end of the study.

RESULTS: Treatment with AHAs caused an approximate 25% increase in skin thickness. The epidermis was thicker and papillary dermal changes included increased thickness, increased acid mucopolysaccharides, improved quality of elastic fibers, and increased density of collagen. No inflammation was evident.

CONCLUSION: Treatment with AHAs produced significant reversal of epidermal and dermal markers of photoaging.

free skin care · Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:12 pm

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, ShastaGirl!!!

Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:48 pm

Hi again,
I get the sense that this has become adversarial. I certainly don't mean it to be. I am just expressing my opinion. I have tried to get the actual research study so I can read the details. On the surface it certainly appears to argue against my position. It is a pilot study which means it may be only one or two subjects. Curious that a follow-up study was never published?
Here is my response; 1)A thickening of the epidermis implies changes to normal skin that likely resulted from chronic inflammation. No one desires a thickened epidermis, they desire a healthy, normal epidermis similar to that of our children...which is not thickened. 2) It is unclear how much of the thickening of the dermis is related to a build-up of acid polysaccharides which are non-functional. Remember that a dermis under repair can appear thickened and it is unclear if the reported extra collagen is related to byproducts of collagen that were damaged and yet to be removed by the immune system. 3) Using doses of 25% repeated daily is an unsustainable approach to the skin so this outcome relates more to a peel effect than a topical that would be used by the masses today. The damage was clearly dermal for this test which is not where experts report AHA serums work (which is actually the epidermis). Burning dermal collagen and elastin will force the skin to repair those proteins which will make them look more organized, a point I have conceded occurs with acid peels. I struggle with the claim that added collagen has occurred and wish I could get the original article to see their methods (see point 5 as to why I struggle). 4) "No inflammation was found". Obviously the follow-up biopsy was done a few (or several) days after the last application. I don't think you believe that the application of 25% acid was not inflammatory? If so, we can have that discussion later. 5) My final point is simply this; the article suggests that the skin has increased its thickness by 25%. That would be 25 years of aging reversed based on our understanding that the skin thins at 1% per year. The visual evidence is overwhelming that the repeated use of AHA's daily is not reversing aging nor has it halted aging. Even on these AHA regimens we are still aging. My belief is we are aging faster. Some of you obviously disagree. Many of you receive acid peels monthly. Are you ten years younger after ten years of acid peels? This study would suggest that you should be 10 years younger after 6 months of acid peels. I have only seen thinner skin as a result of repeated acid peels and repeated acid serum applications. I could be wrong but I am not alone in this belief, I have heard this from 100's of estheticians and physicians over the years.
So I stand by my position. I may go to the library to get this article, though. Always ask yourself why the skin is making more collagen. If it is in response to being burned by an acid then logic (and research) tells us that the skin will only make enough to heal the burned tissue. In fact, most wounds do not recover fully but rather achieve about 80% of their structural integrity.
I am enjoying the debate however! Smile

free skin care · Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:58 pm

Thanks Dr. Johnson for your insight. One thing I noticed in the study I referenced is that it doesn't state the frequency of the 25% AHA applications. Not sure if it was daily or not - that did seem a bit extreme to me.

On the inflammation, based on my personal experience, 25% would induce some inflammation, at least initially (in my skin). It wasn't clear how long after the last application the biopsy was done. So if days later, the inflammation may have gone away.

I'm not sure that increased skin thickness reduces visible aging effects, you can still have thick skin with wrinkles! I'm more interested in the longer-term collagen increases that AHAs (or other products) may offer. I've learned (the expensive way) to look for scientific proof before purchasing. I see your concerns that collagen increases may be due to the wound repair mechanism, definitely something to consider.

Please follow up with us if you are able to obtain more info on this study. I wasn't able to track down a complete copy, although I did see it quoted quite a few places, including Dr. Leslie Baumann's latest book.

free skin care · Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:52 pm

I'm afraid I don't have any scientific viewpoint to contribute to this discussion. I only have my own experience. Due to my advancing age, five years ago I decided to take a more aggressive approach to my anti-aging efforts. My skin was in a terrible state and I was very ashamed of it. I had very obvious broken capilliaries and sebaceous hyperplacia all over my face and had been told by one esthetician that my skin was very thin.

Over the last five years I've used home and salon microdermabrasion, had a laser peel, done regular Lactic Acid and TCA Peels at home, Dermarolled and used Retin-A 0.1%, Vitamin C and Salicylic Acid. It's amazing I have any skin left!

However, I am now extremely proud of my skin - and am frequently complimented on the quality of it by estheticians. I believe the epidermis has thickened considerably which means that my broken caps are barely visible. My SH is also much, much better and I have minimal wrinkling for my age.

But as I've said, I don't have a scientific viewpoint to draw on - but I do have a logical one. Surely, skin that is abraded reacts by forming new skin to protect itself. We see this on people who do manual labour with their hands - the skin becomes thicker in that area. As does the skin on the feet of people who continually walk barefoot. Now this may well be a rather silly analogy - but it works for me!! By constantly abrading the skin on my face, I have definitely improved the look of the epidermis. Whether I've improved the production of collagen and elastin, I don't know - when I get back home I'm going to go and have a Visia skin analysis and see what the results say.

As for stem cells - I'm very interested in this technology. But I'm not sure I trust the cosmetic industry to deliver a viable product. I would prefer to see something developed in a pharmaceutical form.

And, on the subject of Retin-A - the only reason cosmetic companies don't incorporate it in their products is because they're not allowed - it's a drug so they would be subject to all the testing and rigours of a pharmaceutical product (which they don't want because then they wouldn't be able to make all their preposterous and unrealistic claims).

free skin care · Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:54 pm

I'd like to know what Dr. Johnson thinks of dermarolling both for product penetration and for inducing collagen.

Also thank you Dr. Johnson for being a part of our discussion. It's appreciated you give us your time and professional opinion - although I am also one to use lactic acids and light glycolics with good results.

The fact that you are so against is giving me food for thought.
I have a science background - dentistry and nutrition and a BS in chemistry and biology so hearing from a demonstrated,cutting edge professional in the skincare field is intriguing. (sorry to offend anyone but this is much better than Paula Begouin's opinion).

free skin care · Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:38 pm

sister sweets wrote:

I have a science background - dentistry and nutrition and a BS in chemistry and biology so hearing from a demonstrated,cutting edge professional in the skincare field is intriguing. (sorry to offend anyone but this is much better than Paula Begouin's opinion).

Sis - given that you have a scientific background, what is your opinion on Dr. Johnson's range of Harmonised Waters:

Osmosis Pur Medical Skincare has come out with a whole line of frequency water called harmonized water. There are years of scientific studies behind the water. There are no ingredients in the water, there are no drugs involved. It is all natural. It is all based on frequencies that are in tune with your body. There are many waters, depending on your needs.

http://osmosisbeautyblog.com/2010/07/01/osmosis-skin-care-harmonized-water-to-help-you-feel-better/

Apparently, you need a different water for each individual complaint - great marketing. Personally, I find it worrying that a medical professional would recommend energised water for such serious conditions as depression, dementia and Alzheimers.

Here is what a retired chemistry professor has to say about energised water.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/EnergizedWater.html

Here are some more clinical studies on the anti-aging benefits of Salicylic Acid:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1473-2165.2010.00506.x/full

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